Creating The Greatest Show

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Casey Cheshire: what a cool combo we're gonna have. We're gonna be talking podcasting, we're gonna be talking about all sorts of things here. I'm excited. I dunno what's going on. I've got notebooks, I've got pens, I've got three ice coffees surrounding me right now. I can't wait to introduce our guest today.

He's an absolute badass. What can I say? Serial entrepreneur, successful entrepreneur, seasoned podcast host. He. Has actually pivoted multiple careers and, and after being successful with his companies, he's now really focused on the Dream [00:01:00] exit, helping fellow entrepreneurs exit in that dreamlike way. Not in the opposite, not in the nightmare way.

He's been featured in things like Forbes, the Entrepreneur magazine, all sorts of places. And what is his show, because that's what we're here to talk about, the show. He's the creator and host of How Did It Happen, which now has over 440 episodes. As of a few days, who knows? That number's probably doubled by now.

Author of Ownership and dream Exit expert. Mike. Mal Testa. Welcome to show, sir.

Mike Malatesta: Casey, thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for the help that you've given me in a couple of conversations that we have, and thank you for being so excited that you bumped your mic

Casey Cheshire: I did. I like

Mike Malatesta: started. Now that's enthusiasm.

Casey Cheshire: It's like, what? What was that? That just happened? That was me running into

Mike Malatesta: all the caffeine from those iced

Casey Cheshire: yeah, exactly right. Uh, crazy man. So I'm glad you're here. We get to geek out about this thing. We both love for the next bit of time here. So I wanna start the show. The way we start [00:02:00] every show by asking you this question Mike, pull back the curtain for us on your show and share your most important strategy for a great interview podcast.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, sure. So like you said, my show's called How It Happened, and I do two things on that show. once a week I have conversations with really successful people, uh, from all walks of life, and I have two intentions with those conversations. One is to get to the root of how it happened, how their success happened, and however they wanna define their success.

And two is, uh, get to the point of why it matters to you if you're listening. So, and then on the other show that I do, The other episode I do, so I do two a week is what I call free, thinking Friday and on Free Thinking Friday, it's just me and I do a solo episode That's you, like 10 minutes long or so about something that has interested me in the last week, something that I've been made aware of, something that I've read.

Uh, something that I think was, that I [00:03:00] think was cool and that I think the people listening, uh, to me will also. I think is cool as well. So that's the show. But I'm gonna focus on the conversations I have with, uh, successful people for the answer to this question. And that is that what I'm really trying to do, Casey, is I'm trying to get my guests to be curious about themselves.

I find that. Uh, a lot of people who've been on podcasts, especially people who've been on podcasts or a lot of podcasts like executives and o other professionals, they show up kind of wanting to control the narrative around their conversation. Uh, and they're pretty good at it. And I preferred to try to figure out a way to get them to actually think about something about themselves that they weren't.

Thinking they would have to think about and they weren't, maybe weren't prepared to talk about, but not, I'm not trying to, uh, it's not a Gotcha, I'm not a [00:04:00] a gotcha type person. So it's really an organic sort of, oh, and then, you know, kind of when the head goes like til tilts a little bit like that, then um, I feel like we've sort of broken some, some new ground and I really like to get to that new ground where the guest is curious about themselves.

Casey Cheshire: Wow. So it, I mean that's like an a, you know, like the aha moment king at that point. You're, you're creating these little, these, these moments, but then it can't be easy. Right. I I it's almost like the folks that are in control to your point, and are good at it. It's almost like it requires what vulnerability.

It requires a lot of different things that people probably don't come prepared to bear their souls on your show, or do they?

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. Uh, so I think there are some that, you know, some people are in the business of bearing their souls, so it's, so some people, yeah, some, some people are quite ready for that. Um, the, the vast majority, uh, aren't, not that they're [00:05:00] unwilling, they just aren't because they haven't been, they haven't had to.

So I like to think of it as, um, W when when you get them to be curious about themselves, you end up going off in a different direction, perhaps with the conversation. And they don't even know any longer or feel any longer like they're on a squad cast or a Zoom or on a podcast at all. And I'm not suggesting I get there with everybody 'cause I don't.

Um, but man, when you do. Yeah, that's where the like, you know, like some people would call that that's the real gold. And then, you know, that's, that's where you have a great podcast and, and the person when you're done is like, man, that I just never thought I would be talking about, you know, whatever it was today.

And, uh, but they're happy they did.[00:06:00]

Casey Cheshire: What is it about those unscripted moments that are so magical? Why? Why do you, why do you pursue the, I mean, it is a bit, it's not just rhetorical, but like what is about those moments that. Is magic to listen to and then also magic to be a host of

Mike Malatesta: Well, uh, to me, they reflect the reality of life as a human being. I mean, how many people do you run into somewhere and you start. You open up a book and you start asking them, you know, a list of questions that usually, that usually never happens, right? So what normally happens is, I run into you, Casey, hey, hey, I'm Mike.

Um, you know, what do you do? Where you live? Where you from? Where'd you grow up? And they answers to those questions lead to another question. And I have no idea what that question is going to be. And even if I had the questions in mind, I still wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't make sense to [00:07:00] logically. You know, follow a list of questions when you're, , getting answers, you're getting feedback, you're getting direction from the person you're talking to.

Casey Cheshire: I definitely find that that tends to be like a, a new host thing, right? You, you have a list of 30 questions and you're just gonna attack that list. And the worst sin of all, at least with question asking, is to you, you know, to hear that answer they give. And, great. Thanks Mike. Your next question is this, you know, you just, in, you you, maybe the gold was passing you by, they just mentioned something really interesting and you just let it slip by to ask.

Another question, which is probably dumb, probably not even a good question, but instead there was something right in front of you. So it seems to be an experienced host thing where somehow you're able to let go of the, the reins to sort of roll the dice, you know? Talk to me about that. Have you always been like this, or did you evolve into it?

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, I evolved into it, I think, [00:08:00] uh, and I put myself back in my, in the shoes of, say, the first 50 or so episodes that I did. There were two things that were always on my mind. One is, um, the, the, I'm gonna hit a brick wall with this person at, uh, Uh, 15 minutes in and I am on an hour show and I'm not gonna know where to go.

So there's, there was always that fear. So I would have a list of prepared questions when I first started, not. With the intent of asking all of those questions, but with the, uh, uh, it was like preventative measure of like, if, if, if we get stuck and we have no, I got nothing, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna ask him one of these questions to try to get it restarted.

And then I discovered over time that I never asked any of those [00:09:00] questions. Ne I never asked any of those questions. So. Then I began to, well, two things. So I began to abandon that. But also, I also learned one thing that if I'm, if I get 20 minutes into an hour conversation with somebody, it's going the hour or more.

There's just no question about it. It was always the first 20 minutes that I was the most nervous about. So once I. You know, got my feet under me a little bit and, and got a little confident I was able to get rid of the questions. So now what I do, I still have notes in front of me that I've made, um, uh, uh, on the research that I've done on the person.

Uh, and I just have those there because I know that there will come a point where something that they say I'll be able to reference. And connect the two of them [00:10:00] in what hopefully seems like an organic, natural way. So that's, uh, that's been my evolution and I don't write any questions out any longer.

Casey Cheshire: Do you, do you have like a couple go-tos? I mean, that you go to, or like nothing completely unscripted. Like have you gone completely.

Mike Malatesta: I'm, yeah, I'm completely unscripted except for two things. One, the. Beginning of my show, I ask everyone how it happened for them. And I ask that question very, um, the way I ask that question is very intentional because I don't have conversations with them about the answer to that question prior to.

And the reason I don't is I, I get asked a bunch, how do you want me to answer that?

Casey Cheshire: Hmm.

Mike Malatesta: And, and I, um, I. I always say the best answer is the one that you wanna select to answer that. Now you could say, well, what if the [00:11:00] person goes off on some wild ride? That makes no sense. Um, that's a risk. But I found that in, at least in my experience, very few people do that.

They, they have a story that they want to tell. Um, And I don't wanna put any thoughts about what that story is into them, because then I am kind of scripting the, the, the podcast. And then I've, I've taken to this more recently, but at the end, and I think I've sort of copied this from Tim Ferriss, I asked them if there's anything that I haven't asked them or that they would like me to ask before we end the show.

And I th and I like doing like, He, he does that, and I liked that. It often brought up something that I hadn't thought about, which is, but his, you know, value to leave with the listener. And so, and it's a simple question. They, and they can, they can say, Nope, I think we got it all. And I'm like, great. Okay.

And [00:12:00] then if they want to, it's just that one thing that, um, you know, like, I didn't connect that dot, or I totally missed that part, or whatever. And it's makes a good ending, I think.

Casey Cheshire: And, and a lot, I mean, some guests will, I mean, I've been on shows where I had a point and it's like, gosh, darn, I'm gonna make that point. You almost like a politician, right? Where they're like, they ask you one question, you're like, cool, let me finish my point over here, and then I'll, I'll get to your question.

So some, some guests will just do that. But I love the idea that some won't, some will just go with you wherever you're going and, and asking them, it's almost like a little bit of a clearing. Session at the end, just say, are we good at anything left unsaid? You don't want to leave it like that. That's a cool

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, and it makes it, it, it, it makes it not like an interview. It makes it, to me, it like takes a little bit of the, well hopefully the interview thing is gone by the end, but if it's not, it's like here's an opportunity for you to, you know, help me out here with [00:13:00] something that is important to you. And I'm not talking about promoting their website or their core course or anything.

I'm really, Not trying to get at that. I'm trying to get at some lesson, story, advice, whatever that could be helpful to, to me and to everyone listening,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. You know, this is a good topic too, because if you, and you, you said you don't do the prep, right? No prep calls,

Mike Malatesta: it's rare. It's rare.

Casey Cheshire: You just like, get on the show. Let's go.

Mike Malatesta: Oh no. So our, our process is very detailed. So when, once we, once we book, so we sense everyone an invitation. And in that invitation it describes exactly how this is gonna go. Um, you know, the time, the type of equipment we would love you to have. How the, how I'm gonna ask the start. It's an unscripted podcast.

I'm gonna start with how'd it happen for you? And so [00:14:00] it's, it's very detailed that way. But, but I don't usually get on the phone with, with or zoom with people beforehand. I.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. Okay. And so, um, but you do, you are giving them information, but to your point, you don't want to script their answers. You don't wanna manipulate them. And also, I mean, the thing that I have to. The challenge I have to deal with on a prep call is making sure you don't just run away and say the whole show on the prep when we're not recording.

Mike Malatesta: Well, yeah, that, right, right. And that's one of the, that's one of the, and I think I, I think I. When I heard you with Dave Will, that was one of the things he said. 'cause you guys were debating Prep Call, not Prep call. And he was sort of like, I think you both had good points because he was sort of like, I don't want to do what you just said.

I don't want to hear the stuff that I want to come out on the podcast, but your point was, I wanna get started. Right. And that made a lot of sense to me too. So I'm, I'm [00:15:00] not, I, I'm, I'm rethinking it, uh, but. Um, I don't know which way I'll do it, but I But you're, you're, the prep call makes sense to me if, if, uh, if it's got a tight agenda and you're not gonna open up the whole story.

Casey Cheshire: Totally. And you've, you've mentioned this word a couple times. It's one of my favorite words, intention. And I think for me in particular, my intention around the podcast is to create a relationship. And so with that, having a little more time on a. An organized prep call can be great. You know, so that it's the second time I'm seeing you we're chatting today, that kind of thing, as opposed to, you know, cold stranger let's go.

And someone like Dave, um, probably all of us, we could probably warm someone up. Um, in fact, I actually just did a. Did a show without a prep call recently. It was a, it was really interesting. It was a childhood hero. It was a marketer who had been decades championing ss e o and and, and how to market. Rand Fishkin, really cool guy.

[00:16:00] Um, no prep, right? Which you tend to get with the more busy slash. Famous. You know, some people just don't wanna do them and I normally say no if they don't wanna do a prep, I don't wanna interview them, uh, because it's like my rules cool. But I said yes to him and I had to deal with, which I don't normally have to deal with on my show, warming him up.

You know, so I did a little stuff before we hit record, and then even on the show, he's not sure who I am just yet. Right. So we had to have that initial dialogue, you know, which might be tied into that 20 minutes You mentioned that initial 20 minutes where you're kind of feeling each other out.

Mike Malatesta: Right, right.

Casey Cheshire: Tell, tell me more about your, your 20 minutes.

What do you do in that 20 minutes to make? To make it to the 20? So, you know, you can get to the hour.

Mike Malatesta: I wish I could tell you. I just try to get there, you know?

Casey Cheshire: Survival.

Mike Malatesta: what, yeah, what I've learned is that patience is really valuable. Like, for instance, I would be nervous. When I started, [00:17:00] I'd ask, you know, I'd be like, well, what if I asked the, how'd it happen question? And they give me a two word answer. What am I gonna do with, with that?

Fortunately, that's hasn't happened. Maybe I've gotten one sentence from a couple of people, but I, so I used to be nervous about that because I was thinking, well, how do I move on from, from here? But now I'm just patient with it, so I know that whatever they say, Is gonna lead to 3, 4, 5 questions. Of course, I don't know what they are, but I know it's gonna lead to that Casey, and then, um, by that time we're off and, and I don't fear that 20 minute thing anymore.

So sort of like that saying, you slow down to speed up. That's kind of what. That's kind of what, uh, I think it is. I've just been, I'm not nervous about somebody knocking me off my game [00:18:00] with their answer to that first question like I was before. I'm just like, okay, this is gonna be whatever they say, man, it's gonna be like, let's follow that.

Um, and so, so it just hasn't been an issue for me for a long

Casey Cheshire: And it sounds like you're also. Once you deal with something once as a host, right, then it, it's not as a sur much as a surprise the second time. So to get that one sentence answer can be scary. Once you go through it, you're like, well, I dealt with it. You know? I'm sure you asked some kind of follow up, but I do wonder about those short answers.

What's your take? Why? Why do people sometimes give short answers?

Mike Malatesta: Well, I think there's a. There's a humility angle to it. People who are, aren't, uh, naturally comfortable talking about themselves, um, maybe they haven't been on very many podcasts [00:19:00] and they're not naturally, uh, you know, inclined to talk about themselves. They, they're used to going through life in a humble way and a humble way is.

Say as little as I can about myself, but be polite. You know? So I think, um, that probably has something to do about it. And or I, you know, I haven't had the, I'm sure there's the, I, I don't want to be here type person who I, I haven't had that. And I, I think that's one good thing about podcasts is it's because it's a complete choice.

You don't have to be, Anywhere. It's not like someone coming up after a game and sticking a microphone in your face and you have to answer the questions because they're part of the part of the network. And if you don't answer the questions, you get fined. Yeah,

Casey Cheshire: How'd you catch that game? Winning touchdown.

Mike Malatesta: yeah. How did you feel when you threw

Casey Cheshire: Yeah, let me, let me know when, when, yeah,

Mike Malatesta: What did, what did you guys talk about in the locker room to get psyched up for the [00:20:00] second quarter. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, let me tell you everything I said. Uh, they all, yeah, it's, yeah. Anyway, I'm surprised that I, and I know I'm going off on a

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. That's what we

Mike Malatesta: I'm surprised that, uh, that those positions still exist and that anyone caress.

Um, because I get, as a, as a fan, I don't get any, I get zero value out of that. In, in fact, I'd get less than zero because I can see that the coach or the player or whomever is like, oh my God. Um, and just, you know, like it's no fun for them. It's not fun for them. Why? Why do it?

Casey Cheshire: and you're like, what are you talking about? Stop asking 'em questions. Let 'em just celebrate and hold the, hold the cup up. Hold the trophy, you know, bask in the moment. It's crazy. Uh, you know, it's really interesting you brought up that point, uh, because my, my theory going into this conversation when I asked the question was that sometimes people don't answer because. [00:21:00] They're not, they're either not excited about the question or they don't know anything about the question, right? So like, like passion and expertise are not present. So it's just like, I am nothing to really say here, but for, but for question, like, how did it go? You know, and like, or how did it happen? And, and these are things that a founder.

It should have. So I, I, I would imagine it's pro probably more the humility side with a lot of people you're talking to versus, you know, because I sometimes you can ask people questions that are just duds. Have you, have you had that, have you ever you recall

Mike Malatesta: of course, um,

Casey Cheshire: the one I just asked

Mike Malatesta: like I, yeah. Speaking of recency, um, I, I, uh, so I, I had, this hasn't come out yet, but I had this, uh, guy on my podcast named Cal Fussman. And, um, Cal's a, [00:22:00] he, he's a like lead writer for Esquire magazine. He's a. Big deal. And we were having a great conversation and we got into, and he's about 65 or so, but I know he's, he's, you know, into challenging himself physically as well.

Even though when you look at him, you probably wouldn't make that, um, connection right away. And I, I just, and his whole thing is about the, the big questions, like he's known as the big question person. So we had been talking about big questions, sort of like this, and I. I asked him, well, hey, I was like, you know, you're doing these Spartan races and you're doing this other, these other types of thing.

I can't remember exactly what the events were. And I'm like, does that help you as you're going through the process of training for that or, um, actually competing? Does that ever help you with the formulation of, you know, your big questions, like stuff you wouldn't think about? You know, and he's like, well, That's usually happens in the shower.

And I was like, [00:23:00] okay, that's telling me that wasn't that great of a question. You know? So I thought I was going somewhere with it, but yeah, I didn't think that was that great of a question. Um, I don't feel that way too often, but I wonder now that you say that, how often do the people who are listening to my podcast go?

Well, that wasn't a great question. It may probably happen more times than I think.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. Right, because, and that goes to that earlier idea of the scripting versus nons scripting. At least if you script it. Maybe it looked good on paper, you know, maybe it fell flat during the conversation, but at least it sounded good when writing. But when making up a que like, we're riffing. We're going off in these, we're we're exploring together.

Sometimes you have those things.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. And, you know, uh, that, that's, you just made me think, um, I, if you have scripted questions, your natural tendency is, [00:24:00] and you don't have patience, your natural tendency is to be, is to get to that question, and you might, it might be the greatest question, you just ask it at the wrong time because rather than listening for when that's an appropriate question to ask.

You force the question because it's such a great question.

Casey Cheshire: right. And yeah, you, you force it early. What, tell, talk to me about the timelines then. Are there certain questions you don't like to ask early on? Do you, do you tend to ask certain ones at certain times? You know, talk to me about that. It.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, I really don't. I really don't know what. Questions I'm gonna ask Casey. Besides that first one, I said, I know I, I know there are, there are topics or things that I want to weave in at some point when it's right, but I, um, but I, I try, I try to just [00:25:00] let that happen and there's lots of times when at the end I haven't gotten to a bunch of stuff that I thought I might get to, and it just, because it just didn't happen.

Casey Cheshire: You know, that's, yeah, that totally makes sense. Um, by the way, I would, I would argue that was a good example of like an unclear, I wouldn't call it a dead question, but I would say like an unclear question. And I've often found podcasters will sort of figure it out and they'll just make a great answer like yours was just now.

Whereas that untrained person who was just literally gonna take you literally. And if I'm like, have you ever felt that they'd be like, uh, yes or no? Right. It just, if, if you give 'em a, a boo in question, they're just gonna answer it and wait for you to fill in the gaps. Versus a podcaster, I don't know.

There's something, there's something to. That.

Mike Malatesta: Well, again, like I mentioned, I mean, when you come onto a podcast, you've made a choice to come on the podcast. So if, if that means that you're gonna answer a question [00:26:00] with one word and make me feel like I just asked you a bad question, then I don't know that you really showed up for the right

Casey Cheshire: True,

Mike Malatesta: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: Especially if it's you're trying to have a conversation. It's not, it's not c n n. We're not debating, we're not, you know. Surging each other. This is just, you know, it's, it's just two people having a convo about things they love. Um, so you only, your only scripted question is your first one. And you know, it's interesting, my other show, I, I used to ask a couple different mile.

I, even now I have a couple milestones I'll, I'll tend to hit, but. But that's interesting because from my perspective, I oftentimes see people asking personal questions or sensitive questions too soon, right? Going right. Hey, what was your biggest failure? Hey, just met you. Don't know if you can trust me.

And they're like, what's your biggest failure, bro? And it's like, I actually once had one person ask me on a podcast, she was so nice. But your [00:27:00] first question was like, you know, so like, who are you? What makes you, you? You know, and so because it was early in the process, I gave her the, you know, the, the polished answer, which is, well, I'm a technical communicator and blah, blah, blah.

But you know, people that ask me that toward the end of the show, they're getting the fact that I was a magician and I like karate. You know, like, so it's almost like when you can warm them up and it sounds like, you know, maybe that's something you're doing just naturally because it's not scripted.

You're, you're just sort of evolving the question.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, I mean, that's a, I definitely want to get to who you are, so, but I'll ne but I never, I never ask it that way because when I. To me that question, for example, for, for probably 90 plus percent of the people that come on a podcast, that's, I don't wanna say it's an offensive question, but that's not a question that you've earned the right to ask me when we're.[00:28:00]

Just getting started and once you do, like I've had that asked of me and all kinds of questions, you know, on these types of podcasts that I've been on that you met, you, you sort of referenced there. And I, as soon as, like, to me, when I get asked something like that, I'm just like, okay. Lazy. Um, or when it's like, oh, hey Mike, why don't you introduce yourself to everybody?

Okay. Lazy. Um, you know, and there's a lot of, and I. I'm not saying I'm right about that, that's just how it feels to me as a guest or a listener. So I, um,

Casey Cheshire: Well, can we talk about that

Mike Malatesta: I would,

Casey Cheshire: I, 'cause I agree, the, the whole introduce yourself thing, man, doesn't it? It's like you asking someone to introduce themselves is not giving them. I don't think it's giving them the gift. You think it's, it is. You're actually, in my mind, you're telegraphing that you didn't care enough to figure out how to do an introduction to introduce, like, you don't know, like if you can pull off the interview [00:29:00] and make it look like maybe you don't actually know who they are.

You almost like a C N N. Yeah. No, I didn't read your book. I'm just gonna literally ask you four questions that anybody could have asked you. You know, it just, it transmits the wrong sig.

Mike Malatesta: Well, especially when almost everybody provides you with some sort of bio. About them. That's part of our process. Do you have a bio? Do you have a picture? You know, we'd like to have these things and when I'm on shows, I get, I give them, you know, the what, the bio, what they need, the bio, the, and so, and I'm not looking for someone to, like with my bio, I'm not, I don't care if they read the bio, you know, word for word.

In fact, I'd rather they didn't. What I'd rather they do is, is talk about who I am in a way that makes sense to them. And then I can fill in the rest. I mean, I'm on your show for an hour here or whatever. Uh, so I can fill in the rest, but I just don't like that, like I said, it, it, to me, it says [00:30:00] lazy. Um, and it just, to me, it's not a great way to,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: start.

I.

Casey Cheshire: To be fair, you know, if you're listening to this, and that's the method you do, I understand you may not know or not be aware of that, that you might be sending subtle signals, you know, to your guest, uh, by doing that. So maybe just maybe today's the day you start doing a little intro instead. Just anything that, and I like how you said that, Mike, about putting it in your own words, right?

What that, what that guest means to you. Far outstrips trying to ever read a bio of someone, right? We're not here to read their biography, you know, their 30 volume text.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I, I just find that it's a subtle way to honor your guests by being able to say something nice about them to get started. And what I typically do, as I mentioned, a lot of people provide the bio. [00:31:00] I take portions of the bio and that those are the ones that I'm gonna talk about. And then as I'm doing it, the introduction, I ask them questions about something in the bio or I interject about, um, some organization that they're head of that I've never heard of.

And so, so I just kind of make it like my own. I I try to make it my own. Um, and, and oftentimes, It, uh, there's a question to them in the bio in the reading of the bio, which I hardly anyone does that. Um, but I think they like it.

Casey Cheshire: Wait, tell me more about that. There's a, there's a question to them reading the bio. What, what does that mean?

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, so they might have like, I am a certified, nutraceutical blah blah something, right? And I'm like, Hmm, I know. I don't know what that [00:32:00] is. So rather than just reading. What they wrote. You know, Casey is a certified nutraceutical whatever, X-ray. I go, I'll say, Casey is a certified nutraceutical and they'd be like, what does that mean? Never heard of that. What does that mean? And then they'll tell me, and it's just like a little breakup in the, in the bio that. In the reading of the bio that brings the guest in right away, but in a, in a way where they're helpful to me as opposed to me trying to be, know everything about them.

Uh, or I'll say and, or they'll have some designation. I'll be like, had to, it had to feel cool when you were profiled, uh, in Entrepreneur Magazine. And I'll just say that it's not like a question to them. I'll just be like, eh, that had to be cool. So I just try to add something along the way of the bio to give so it's not just reading a bio.

Casey Cheshire: That's really cool. That's a really cool tip. That's like a power tip there. The idea. Of [00:33:00] building in, uh, it's almost a rhetorical or just it, it's like, and are you, you, you actually asking that question or are you just kind of like mentioning like, oh, that was, that would be really cool. The fact

Mike Malatesta: De

Casey Cheshire: you know, your,

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, it depends. Um, or, or, or like that same one. I might read that, you know, uh, they were featured as whatever in Entrepreneur Magazine. I'd be like, how'd that feel?

Casey Cheshire: Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: You, you know, so sometimes it's just a comment on it and sometimes it's, it's a just a small little question that I'll, I just think it, I don't know, feels like it works to me.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah, so it's something about it, it's like a, it's like a little micro signal that says, As I, I'm interested in you, right, and I know just something, something more about you than meets the eye. E doesn't necessarily have to be reading the book. A friend of mine, Ethan, he will read all of your books and he'll, he'll outline them and he'll bring up quotes and everything and he's the master of preparation.

Um, [00:34:00] but something as little as. As remembering the fact that you're in Wisconsin, which is where my sister-in-law is and I went to a concert there, you know, just something that kind of gets brought up. But even better if it's about their accomplishment.

Mike Malatesta: So, um, I'm glad you brought up the book thing because one thing I do. If I reach out to somebody because I've heard them on a podcast or something and they are promoting a book, I will get the book and I will read that book, um, because I want the, like, that's why I reached out to them, really. Um, and I know what they're trying to accomplish.

Well, on the, on the other hand, it just because someone has written a book, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm not necessarily going to read. The book, every book that a, that a guest that say came to me through a channel or something wrote, um, I, like, I prefer, I [00:35:00] think you have much better conversation with somebody if you've done something with their material.

If you're gonna ask them about it. If you, if they wrote a book and you haven't read it, then uh, I think you should say, I haven't read it. Um, and not pretend to have. Read it or pretend we're gonna dive deep into the book. So tell me what chapter one's all about and then that's your question and then you sit back and wait.

Um, and this is another pro tip. I got this from James Altucher, who's, um, you may have heard of. He's got. Podcast called James Outer Show. Um, and he reads a lot of books for like, you can tell he's read a lot of the books that, uh, and he's got some really big names that come on that expect you to have read the book.

But, um, his pro tip was if you don't have time to read the book, just read the beginning, you know, the, the introduction, first chapter, and the end. And if you don't have time to do that, just read the end.

Casey Cheshire: no.

Mike Malatesta: And he's like, you'll know more than [00:36:00] most people who are going to talk to them about that book will ever know because they haven't touched it at all.

And you'll be able to, you know, have a meaningful conversation about the book. Maybe not an in-depth conversation, but a meaningful conversation about the book where again, you've honored them by doing something. but then I, I wonder too, like, uh, like Tim Ferriss will say, I don't read any, I don't read anybody's books.

It's just I don't do it. And the people who come on his show often have books, so he pretty much, he doesn't fake it, doesn't try to, but he just kind of stays away from the book unless they bring up, you know, something in the book and then he just feeds off of that, which I think is fine as well. But I, I haven't reached this, the point where, um, I feel.

I have that type of audience and the type of command that he has where he can just say, I'm just not gonna read books. Uh, 'cause I got my own stuff [00:37:00] to do. Um, but you're still gonna have a great, uh, conversation with me.

Casey Cheshire: You know, that's interesting. I did. I didn't know that about Tim, uh, because I, for the most part, tend to subscribe to that sentiment. Um, my rationale has been I don't wanna read the book because then I, I'll like, I'll know everything. And why would I ask you? Because I already know everything that you. You just stated.

And, and also I think part of this is too, I also don't want to ask leading questions that I know the answer to too much, I mean too much. 'cause I know I ask you a, a question at the very beginning of this show leading question. I, I, I have a, a general sense of where you're gonna go with it, and I'm excited to hear, but I don't want to ask you a question and that I know the answer to, which is probably, Attorneys do that.

Right. But like I, I, I'm generally asking 'cause I'm curious, so I really do wanna know the answer. [00:38:00] If I've already read your book, I have to find other questions to be curious about. So I

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except that, except maybe that the people who are listening to your podcast haven't read the book. So while the answer may not be surprising to you, it may be surprising to them. So I, I think there's. You know, like I said, I go, I, I've, I, I read a bunch of them, but I don't read all of them.

Um, I do feel like I'm better prepared when I've read the book and,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: and, and not just about the book itself, but about them. There's a lot more usually in the book about them than their bio suggests, you

Casey Cheshire: spent some more time with them. You know, my excuse is that I wanna be inspired to read the book after this conversation. Um, it, it could be lazy. I don't know. Something I'm, something I've been toying with. Uh, yeah.

Mike Malatesta: I don't think it's lazy. Uh, I don't, that's [00:39:00] that, I don't think it's lazy. I mean, you're asking somebody that's a lot of work, 4, 5, 6 hours to read a book.

Casey Cheshire: sure. Especially if you, what if you don't like it though? Right? What if you

Mike Malatesta: not nothing. Um,

Casey Cheshire: Have you ever had that? Have you,

Mike Malatesta: Sure, of course. Well, I shouldn't say don't. Like, I mean, there've been, uh, there have definitely been some where I haven't enjoyed them as much as others, let's put it that way.

But, but I'm not looking, I just wanna be clear. I'm not looking for people to come on my podcast because they have a book and, and I want to read it. That's not what I'm. Looking for generally, like I said, if I hear about something and I reach out to them, compliment them on their book, uh, and ask them to be on my show, then I feel like I, I need to dig into that.

Casey Cheshire: It's definitely a different dynamic if you're requesting of them to be on versus you know them just pitching you and [00:40:00] you're like, cool, let's give this a whirl. There's definitely a difference there,

Mike Malatesta: I, yes, for sure.

Casey Cheshire: and I almo it almost works better when you ask them to be on, right? Because they're, you're invested interest, you're excited. At least like when Rand came on my show, he doesn't know who I am, but, uh, but I. I, but he has the benefit of, of a host who already likes him, right? I already like the guy, I've listened to him for two decades.

So this is not gonna be a tough interview. This is gonna be a fun one. Um, at least, at least half of it. You know, I'm a fan and he eventually becomes a fan. Uh, it's a cool dynamic to it.

Mike Malatesta: So how did you get him?

Casey Cheshire: How did I just, just reached out? I said, Hey,

Mike Malatesta: did okay,

Casey Cheshire: um, it wa wasn't any real magic to it. Maybe, you know, maybe he's famous in a select marketing community, but yeah, just really, but a really cool guy.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. [00:41:00] I mean, he is okay.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah, just really cool guy reached out and also he is doing a new thing now, so he's, he's got, you know, he's got a new SAS app. He is, he's doing things and so of course he could, you know, he could use the attention and the promotion as well. So there's a benefit to him, uh, to be on. But yeah, just, just

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, his name's really familiar to me. He, he just recently had a company that he sold, I think, um,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. He, he founded, uh, the SS e o Moz company, or at least with. His, with his family, he created the Moz, m

Mike Malatesta: Hmm.

Casey Cheshire: It's pretty cool. But now, now he's doing the, like, the next phase. So it was just a cool convo and we, we got to a lot of stuff. Um, but now that we're geeking out on, on, on like how much we love it, I'm just curious, is there one particular aspect you love the most about being a home?

Mike Malatesta: Hmm. I love to have my own curiosity satisfied, so I want people to get curious about themselves when, when we're talking, [00:42:00] but I. I just get a lot of energy out of my own, uh, curiosity being, uh, peaked and satisfied. Um, when I'm talking to someone and it's, and, and it's evidently, it's easy to do, Casey, because there's hardly any that I walk away from where I'm like, well, I know I, my curiosity wasn't satisfied at all with that person.

That that rarely happens. Um, so I think as for me as a, as a host, that's like number one. Um, I, you know, I always, um, I'm always trying to do work that I think is important, and I'm always trying to do it as best as I can on that day. And I, geez, I always hope that someone else will like it, um, and get it. I think that's the thing that if there's anything that.

If there's [00:43:00] anything that I am, I feel like I've still massively in search of is how do I get more people to give my show, uh, a chance.

Casey Cheshire: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: Um, and it's just, and I'm sure that that's probably what most podcasters are, are saying to themselves is, How, like if you think you have, you're doing good work and it's, um, and it's got a broader potential appeal than what you're seeing in your numbers or whatever, how do you break through, um, and get it, get people to give you a chance?

Casey Cheshire: And, and this kind of brings up that challenge of do in your intentions, who's more important, your own curiosity or the listener's curiosity?

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. [00:44:00] Well, um, so what do you think the answer to that is?

Casey Cheshire: Uh, I was, I wanted to know your answer before I, I. I, you

Mike Malatesta: Okay, so my answer's clear. If it's, if it's, if it. It doesn't satisfy my curiosity. I shouldn't be doing it, and so I can't put the listener in front of me when it comes to podcasts. I, I have to get something out of it before I can hope to have a chance for the listener to get something out of it.

Casey Cheshire: But isn't it tempting then to make the listener. Are the priority right now, my answer is more like yours because I, I couldn't sit through this thing like one for instance, other than Rand, who is a reformed ss e o specialist in the marketing community. I, I can't stand to talk to anyone about that specialty on my marketing podcast. Just, I'm just not gonna do [00:45:00] it. I just can't do it.

I dislike that industry and other than a childhood hero, you're not gonna, it was funny. I was like 20, but other than a hero of mine, I don't really want to talk to any, and we didn't talk SEO O either. So it was like, I just don't want to do, I just can't do it. So there's certain things I just don't, you know, it's just, that's anti curiosity for me.

But, but you're, I've always felt that if I'm interested, then wouldn't everyone else be too, which may or may not be true, you know?

Mike Malatesta: Well, you think about any type of production, right? It's whether it's a movie or television or a standup show or whatever. You, you, you're always interested in whether the audience is going to accept what you're doing,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: but you're, but you're always best when you've accepted what you're doing. You're putting it out there and you're, you're hoping that it resonates with the, with the audience, but if it doesn't resonate [00:46:00] with you, you just feel like there's no way I can connect not for long, that I can connect to an audience with something I'm not sold on.

I really feel like you have to be sold on what you're doing, and by sold on what you're doing, I don't mean you can't improve, you can't, you know, get tips. You can't. Continue to get better. I mean, it is a continuing, continuous improvement process, but if you're not sold on the core of what you're doing, well, you know, you'll be like, probably like most to most podcasters that end up doing 10 episodes or 20 episodes.

And that's, that's, that's that they're not sold on what they're doing. Um, They're trying something. So there's difference, right? There's difference between commitment and trying. Um, I, I feel like I'm committed to, yeah.

Casey Cheshire: it creates such a low energy when you're not interested. So I, I do feel like it's kinda like a table stakes, that if you're not interested, then who else is gonna be, I I confession to make in one of [00:47:00] my, um, let's see. I'm, I'm, I'm chasing your number. I think something like 300 episodes on the marketing pod and a bunch of this one.

In one of those episodes I did check out mentally and check my email. Know, you know, and uh, and my slack and everything else in under the sun because the guy was just so boring and I hated it. And I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, but I'm confessing to you, Mike, that I did this because I just wasn't interested.

And instead of trying to take like an active role in interrupting him and maybe asking something different or some other question, I sort of just let it ride. You know, let him do his monologue and then I'm just gonna. Not be there, and it just, it's just not good. Right. As people could imagine. It does not make the episode doesn't get better when you do that.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. It's, what do they say that suboptimal that is less than ideal. Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: It's,

Mike Malatesta: You might as well just, you know, hit the disconnect call [00:48:00] button and I,

Casey Cheshire: we got disconnected. I,

Mike Malatesta: on this one,

Casey Cheshire: I lost my internet.

Mike Malatesta: we're gonna, yeah, I'll give back to you when we can reschedule.

Casey Cheshire: So we gotta stay engaged. But then I, I think it is that, it's like a hierarchy of needs, right? We need to be engaged, we're engaged, but then it's doing those things. Thinking about, you know, when I was chatting with Dave about time to value of your pod and other things you can do to maybe display the conversation in a certain way that, that, that helps the people out that are listening, doing certain things that you may, may not wanna do that.

Uh, can help the listener figure out what you're talking, I, I don't know. There's just, it's like we do need to consider who's listening at some point in the process.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, well, of course. Um, I just ca so considering who's listening is a different thing than who are you, you know, who do you need to satisfy first? Um, [00:49:00] I'm always considering who's listening. Um, I. I learned this technique from a guy named David sra, um, who, who does a podcast called Founders, which is, which is a really good podcast, but it's solo podcast.

And he talks about books that he read, uh, biographies and autobiographies. Really guy's super passionate. But one of the things that he does all the time, and I do this now, is he addresses his audience as you so he'll say, and you and me know that. You know, from which whoever's book that, you know, uh, history doesn't repeat itself.

Human nature does, for example, that's something he says all the time. So he's always saying, you, um, or you and me, to try to keep, you know, the audience connected with him. And I, I've, I've stolen that and I use that now because I think it's very powerful and very few people do [00:50:00] it.

Casey Cheshire: I love that. I love that tip. The, the idea of dressing as you and I, and I haven't heard a pro of that, but I have heard the negative, which is when you, when you talk about the people listening, you can, oh, oh, oh, my listeners, or, uh, Um,

Mike Malatesta: Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: uh, my, my, my audience in ways that make people feel gross to be listening.

Right? Like you can sort of degrade your audience and lump them into a sort of crowd. Oh, you, you, you people listening, you know, but it's like, no, you, I'm talking directly to you and just the two ears listening to this right now. That's powerful.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. And I, I, I, I'm glad you brought that up because this is a totally different what he does. He's not like you sh he's, he's not like those people who go, you just heard a bomb drop here, folks, you gotta remember that. You know, or whatever they, you know, they sound like a radio dj. His is just [00:51:00] like, he just connects with you, you and me.

He's like, you and me both know, he's not telling you, he's not, you know, telling you what you should. He's just like, Hey, Casey, remember you and me were whatever. That's what he is doing. And I think it's a really powerful, subtle, uh, way to connect with people that they don't feel gross at all. They're like, oh yeah, we were, we were reading this book together.

Um, or talking about, you know, Henry Ford together and,

Casey Cheshire: it's a cool technique, man. Um, because, you know, I've listened to enough Joe Rogan episodes that I feel like I know the guy pretty well. I don't know the guy at all, right? But I feel like I've listened to him so many times that, you know, I know you and you don't know me, but it'd be even worse, that effect would be even worse or greater in this case if he was doing that on the show.

Like if he was talking to me personally by saying, eh, Know, like you're describing, man, that sounds like recipe for a really cool, you know, creating a, a relationship with your listeners, not just, you know, ca like a [00:52:00] casual commercial one.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, I think it's something worth trying for people that are listening. I think it's something worth trying. See how it feels for you.

Casey Cheshire: Well, you know what? You just dropped a bomb there. That's what you did just now.

Mike Malatesta: Were you folks listening to that? You gotta write that. Yeah.

Casey Cheshire: well, my, my audience was listening to that and, uh, well, you know, I have one final question for you.

Mike Malatesta: Okay.

Casey Cheshire: Is there anything I haven't asked?

Mike Malatesta: Oh boy. Yeah. Is there anything you haven't asked? What

Casey Cheshire: anything, anything I, anything I haven't asked, anything I haven't asked you? Is there anything.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah, you haven't asked me. What's the one. Big takeaway that I've had from listening to your podcast and I've listened to maybe five episodes so far, and I'm gonna tell you one of the biggest takeaways that I have had, uh, and it was with your most recent podcast guest, the one that dropped, and I don't remember [00:53:00] his name, and I didn't really,

Casey Cheshire: Was it this one the about the podcasting or was it the marketing one?

Mike Malatesta: it was about podcasting.

And, uh, I was listening to it and, you know, I was walking and I was kind of, you know, not completely engaged with his story,

Casey Cheshire: Yeah.

Mike Malatesta: but at the end he said something, he, he, he started talking about some tools that he uses and he brought up this tool called Opus AI that essentially you download your video and it creates clips for you for social media.

And I mean, it creates, you know, I tried it right away and it creates wonderful YouTube shorts or social media posts with the transcription. It's smart enough to know how to put it together most of the time. And I walked away from your episode like one of my major. So I, I have a producer, she takes my show and she edits it [00:54:00] and she makes, uh, edits the video, edits the audio, makes me one social media clip.

And, um, you know, I pay X amount a month for that, right? And I'm like, well, how do I get more social media clips? That's what I want. I want more, more, more, more. Well, it costs more, more, more. So I was like, well, I don't wanna pay more, more, more. Um, so then I'm listening to you and this guy on your podcast and you and here are talking about tools and he mentions this tool open.

Say I, right away I am like that's what I've been looking for. And. Not only is it free if you just wanna sort of mess around with it, but the pro version is 220 or $288 a year. So every single, so what can I do to honor my guests? We were talking about that before, not just one social media clip that I'll send you.

I'm gonna send you and post one every day about our episode for a week. You know, um, [00:55:00] and that was, so thank you for having that gentleman on and asking him. That question, which you could have not asked him. And, uh, and, uh, I, and I think anyone who is listening and anyone who's listening to this that is a podcaster or does anything on social media with video, and one of your challenges is how do I take this video that I have and actually make it digestible for shorts or social media clips?

And then you combine that with chat G P T. The pro version of that to make your posts for you and incorporate the video, and all of a sudden you've gone from something that was very expensive and out of your hands if you weren't technical, technical to something that any podcaster can do. Um, so tremendous value.

Um, there you go.

Casey Cheshire: Boom. There it is. Shout out to Nolan, by the way, that was, that was the episode

Mike Malatesta: Nolan. Okay. Yeah. Nolan, thank you for [00:56:00] that.

Casey Cheshire: Good dude. Uh, man. Mike, what do you think? We just blasted through a time warp here. We, an hour later plus

Mike Malatesta: we made it.

Casey Cheshire: made it.

Mike Malatesta: We made it. Man, you're a good guy. You're a good guide. Thank you.

Casey Cheshire: I appreciate it, man. Where can people reach out? They want to connect, you know, some social apps or some websites, some URLs, and also throw out the name of the show too. We can link to that.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. So the show is, how'd it happen? Um, And my name is Mike Malat Testa, M a l A t E ss t a, Mike malat testa.com. Uh, you can get everything about me there, so it's centralized one spot. Connect with me access the podcast there. Um, information about my book is there, information about the Dream Exit that we talked about at the beginning, which is a program that I have to help entrepreneurs.

With revenue between five and a hundred million. Prepare for the [00:57:00] dream exit that they deserve, but often don't get. Um, so yeah, everything's there. Mike mal tested.com.

Casey Cheshire: it. Love it. We're gonna have to hang out and, uh, swap copies of our books so we can read, read each other's books. That that is gonna go on. My Good Reads list, sir. Um, it, it's great having you here, Mike. Thank you so much for coming on here, schooling me on things, having a good conversation about things, talking about.

Tension about how did it happen, why does it matter? All these things, the scripting, the control of the narrative. Man, I just had such a great time. I appreciate you.

Mike Malatesta: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. It's been great.

Casey Cheshire: All right, and everyone listening, if you learn something and I freaking know you did, 'cause I literally have two pages of notes over here, front and back. Then share it with someone else and be a thought leader to one person, nine people, 3000 people, whatever. Um, and with that, Mike, thanks again dude. And uh, yeah, exciting stuff.

I can't wait to check out your. Next episode.

Mike Malatesta: Thanks Casey.

Casey Cheshire: cool guys, that was it. [00:58:00] Another crazy cool episode of creating the Greatest Show. We will see you all next time.